I love the true story about the group of boys stranded on a deserted island! We need the book and movie about THAT version of what real children are capable of…in a good, positive, uplifting way. Amazing. ❤️🙏🏻
Children are capable of either, truthfully. Golding left out the back story making it difficult to determine factors in their upbringing that may have led to the upheaval. The story written by Bregman begins with boys from a “Strict Catholic Boarding School” which shows they start with shared values, which likely contributed to their ability to work together.
They are not "shared" values, in fact they not values at all, if anything strict upbringing breeds resentment, which is a ticking time bomb waiting to explode, if anything they cooperated DESPITE their upbringing, not because of it.
The science behind their behavior says otherwise. According to your comment they should’ve lost their minds, but they didn’t, BECAUSE boundaries and discipline, if done properly, instill confidence and cooperation. Additionally, objective morality creates cohesion; they have a shared biblical understanding of right and wrong.
Quoted from the story “Unlike the fictional Lord of the Flies, the castaways maintained a strict social order, shared responsibilities, and resolved conflicts through prayer and discussion.”
Thank you for sharing the real life stories of boys cooperating instead of hurting each other. I wonder how much this book resonates with people because of the theology of original sin in Christianity.
ASDE shared one of Naomi Fisher's posts about 'Lord of the Flies' earlier in the week too - so fun to get two perspectives on this in such a short time. Agreed, and love the true story about the boys in the 1960s. I'd never heard that story before. Wish that one got its own book and film series!
I am going to watch this new adaptation of the novel because the acting, direction and photography looks superb, and I think I may need to reread the book (which, as you said, was compulsory reading when I was at school decades ago). But I am forever grateful to you for writing this essay and sharing it a few years ago as I had always felt something was 'off' about the premise in the novel.
I really appreciate the back story here about the Author’s life. I think it really makes sense when it comes to the dark story he wrote. I can say with certainty- that if my sons were deserted like the boys in the true life story- they would have done the same to help their fellow friends/comrades. Boys are not just violent creatures. My sons are loving, kind, sensitive, strong, creative, helpful, resourceful… & they deeply value the sacredness of life. We as a society really need to nurture these qualities in boys & young men.
I ran a Pop-Up Adventure Playground in Albany, New York monthly for three summers before closing it in 2020. No curriculum, no adult-led activities, just open space and loose parts: cardboard boxes, rope, paint, tires, scrap wood.
About 750 people came through over those three years. Some families drove two hours each way.
The moment I remember most clearly: an ice cream truck pulled up playing that song. The one designed to pull every child’s attention away from whatever they’re doing.
Not a single child looked up.
The truck waited. Nothing happened. Eventually it drove away.
The kids were so deeply engaged in what they had chosen that one of the strongest external pulls in childhood couldn’t even break their focus.
That’s what always felt off to me about Lord of the Flies. The assumption that chaos is the natural state unless adults impose order. What I kept seeing instead was that when children are given real freedom, something surprisingly coherent often emerges on its own.
40 years of that work is remarkable. I’d genuinely love to know what you saw change over that time, both in the children and in how the adults around them responded to what was happening.
That gap between what actually emerges and what people expect to see still feels like one of the most important things to understand.
I have worked in many situations with children free-playing for literally thousands of hours in especially designed free play camps and even real Sudbury schools. In over 40 years of doing that I developed a similar perspective to Peter Gray — the Lord of the Flies draws a strange and unreal general conclusion that is contradicted by children’s real nature of good hearted cooperation and natural empathy.
It was required reading in my Midwest public school in either middle school or high school and I always found its premise perplexing! I’m very glad to have Peter clarify and straighten it out with these several real stories of similar situations that support my real life experience with many many groups of children!!
I see Lord of the Flies as part of the post-war "lost boys" genre of novels, not universally true nor meant to be applied as such. Clockwork Orange fits this too, but for WWI. They're stories about what happens to a generation abandoned because the adults were killed or traumatized by war. The children grow into the culture that was modeled for them, and the lesson isn't that it's innate but that adults are responsible for creating a world that allows children to be the best version of themselves and terrible things happen when we fail
My 9th grade teacher was mighty hostile to Goldman's outlook. My fellow students didn't seem to take it seriously as anything scientific.
As you rightly underscore, it's FICTION. Also, not intended as limited to children. Rather, to humans generally when unrestrained by authoritative figures, institutions.
I took the book, too, as a constructive corrective to notions not just about innate human nature, but so too whether civilizing norms would hold up under extreme conditions. You rightly underscore that the stranded kids didn't immediately turn to savagery. And the inspiring story of kids pulling together. Mighty heartening. Not to be dismissed.
I've valued Lord of the Flies as detonating holes in overtouting the potency of civilizing norms, innate human goodness. We're not far from The Holocaust after all, much other genocide, widespread acceptance of the attempted Jan 6 rebellion. At the same time, I loathe pervasive beliefs in Original Sin -- skewed toward blaming women, girls. If widespread clitorectomy is the price of many otherwise peaceful communities, I consider it a horrifically violent, sexist one.
Why see this as an either/or that will always turn out the same -- one way or another? I've been in many communities from very young: some inclusive, expansive, humane. Others not: highly cliquish, bigoted in vicious ways. Or only toward some of us. Some of the time. Sometimes, I've felt like I could, did make a difference w/ advocacy, leadership. Other times, I've managed only to stir isolation -- perhaps inadvertently more divisiveness violence --despite meaning well. I believe some awesome leaders HAVE made an enormous difference: e.g. ML King, Jr., Mandela. It ain't all immutable laws of nature; nor OUR innate or socialized character.
"attempted Jan 6 rebellion." fedsurrection "inadvertently more divisiveness violence --despite meaning well." Yes contrarians to your beliefs are often triggering to you. Yes certainly in the States lesson plan for the indoctrinees any organic organization by the kulaks must be discouraged.
It was book on our school list, but was never a choice for me and your summary of it confirms why I was never interested in reading it. My childhood started pre television so our time was spent outside adventuring. At 6 and a with my brother at 7 we would often leave the house after breakfast and head off either to the creek to yabby and check out the gypsy camp, or got to the golf course and position ourselves on a hole where we could pick up balls without the golfers seeing us. My brother would then sell them back to the golfers for 5 cents a piece. My mother never worried and we just made sure we were back before dinner or dark. I have memories back to very early days where ( I confirmed this with my mother) we were all sleeping in the one bed apart from myself who was in the cot at the end. I vividly remember waiting for everyone to be asleep, worked out that to get out I needed to be in the corner of the cot to pull myself up, slide down the outside and then try to climb up on the bed at the end so as not to wake anyone up and hop in with everyone. Ultimately I couldnt pull myself up and would tap mum who would say "not you again" but pull me up so I could sleep with them. I always spoke to my own children like I was speaking to an adult when explaining or answering their questions. The fact that they may not necessarily be able to express themselves clearly does not mean that they dont understand. The local kids in the street all played well across all ages and I dont remember ever being threatened by any of them. For me , those 2 stories you mentioned, reflect real life for children. Thanks Peter I love hearing good stories -:)
"attempted Jan 6 rebellion." fedsurrection "inadvertently more divisiveness violence --despite meaning well." Yes contrarians to your beliefs are often triggering to you. Yes certainly in the States lesson plan for the indoctrinees any organic organization by the kulaks must be discouraged.
I watched this TV series and enjoyed the artistic production, and I think it portrayed the horrors very poignantly. Rather than the lack of school discipline, I think that it was the family backgrounds what made the cruelest boys so cruel. They were boys who had been abandoned to boarding schools and regularly faced the embarrassment of having to spend holidays in school as well, as their families would not have them at home. The had not experienced love and care. They had fear and contempt towards their parents, fathers in particular. Piggy on the other hand, although orphaned, came from a loving home with his aunt. So to me this is a tale that highlights the crucial importance of a loving home, not the need for disciplined school. I had heard the true stories or lost boys before and love them! They are more telling of human nature than Golding's book.
an important read
I love the true story about the group of boys stranded on a deserted island! We need the book and movie about THAT version of what real children are capable of…in a good, positive, uplifting way. Amazing. ❤️🙏🏻
Children are capable of either, truthfully. Golding left out the back story making it difficult to determine factors in their upbringing that may have led to the upheaval. The story written by Bregman begins with boys from a “Strict Catholic Boarding School” which shows they start with shared values, which likely contributed to their ability to work together.
Interesting point, Tamara. 🙂
They are not "shared" values, in fact they not values at all, if anything strict upbringing breeds resentment, which is a ticking time bomb waiting to explode, if anything they cooperated DESPITE their upbringing, not because of it.
The science behind their behavior says otherwise. According to your comment they should’ve lost their minds, but they didn’t, BECAUSE boundaries and discipline, if done properly, instill confidence and cooperation. Additionally, objective morality creates cohesion; they have a shared biblical understanding of right and wrong.
Quoted from the story “Unlike the fictional Lord of the Flies, the castaways maintained a strict social order, shared responsibilities, and resolved conflicts through prayer and discussion.”
Gracias gracias Pedro por tus tan tan necesarias reflexiones.
Thank you for sharing the real life stories of boys cooperating instead of hurting each other. I wonder how much this book resonates with people because of the theology of original sin in Christianity.
Thank you for sharing this. This was an excellent read. To me this book is about the fragility of civilization and how easy it collapses over tyranny…
ASDE shared one of Naomi Fisher's posts about 'Lord of the Flies' earlier in the week too - so fun to get two perspectives on this in such a short time. Agreed, and love the true story about the boys in the 1960s. I'd never heard that story before. Wish that one got its own book and film series!
I am going to watch this new adaptation of the novel because the acting, direction and photography looks superb, and I think I may need to reread the book (which, as you said, was compulsory reading when I was at school decades ago). But I am forever grateful to you for writing this essay and sharing it a few years ago as I had always felt something was 'off' about the premise in the novel.
I really appreciate the back story here about the Author’s life. I think it really makes sense when it comes to the dark story he wrote. I can say with certainty- that if my sons were deserted like the boys in the true life story- they would have done the same to help their fellow friends/comrades. Boys are not just violent creatures. My sons are loving, kind, sensitive, strong, creative, helpful, resourceful… & they deeply value the sacredness of life. We as a society really need to nurture these qualities in boys & young men.
I ran a Pop-Up Adventure Playground in Albany, New York monthly for three summers before closing it in 2020. No curriculum, no adult-led activities, just open space and loose parts: cardboard boxes, rope, paint, tires, scrap wood.
About 750 people came through over those three years. Some families drove two hours each way.
The moment I remember most clearly: an ice cream truck pulled up playing that song. The one designed to pull every child’s attention away from whatever they’re doing.
Not a single child looked up.
The truck waited. Nothing happened. Eventually it drove away.
The kids were so deeply engaged in what they had chosen that one of the strongest external pulls in childhood couldn’t even break their focus.
That’s what always felt off to me about Lord of the Flies. The assumption that chaos is the natural state unless adults impose order. What I kept seeing instead was that when children are given real freedom, something surprisingly coherent often emerges on its own.
40 years of that work is remarkable. I’d genuinely love to know what you saw change over that time, both in the children and in how the adults around them responded to what was happening.
That gap between what actually emerges and what people expect to see still feels like one of the most important things to understand.
Great story about the adventure play and the ice cream truck. I can easily believe it.
I have worked in many situations with children free-playing for literally thousands of hours in especially designed free play camps and even real Sudbury schools. In over 40 years of doing that I developed a similar perspective to Peter Gray — the Lord of the Flies draws a strange and unreal general conclusion that is contradicted by children’s real nature of good hearted cooperation and natural empathy.
It was required reading in my Midwest public school in either middle school or high school and I always found its premise perplexing! I’m very glad to have Peter clarify and straighten it out with these several real stories of similar situations that support my real life experience with many many groups of children!!
I 💯 agree, Al! 💛
I see Lord of the Flies as part of the post-war "lost boys" genre of novels, not universally true nor meant to be applied as such. Clockwork Orange fits this too, but for WWI. They're stories about what happens to a generation abandoned because the adults were killed or traumatized by war. The children grow into the culture that was modeled for them, and the lesson isn't that it's innate but that adults are responsible for creating a world that allows children to be the best version of themselves and terrible things happen when we fail
As with many works of fiction, there are many ways of interpreting Golding's book. This is one of them.
My 9th grade teacher was mighty hostile to Goldman's outlook. My fellow students didn't seem to take it seriously as anything scientific.
As you rightly underscore, it's FICTION. Also, not intended as limited to children. Rather, to humans generally when unrestrained by authoritative figures, institutions.
I took the book, too, as a constructive corrective to notions not just about innate human nature, but so too whether civilizing norms would hold up under extreme conditions. You rightly underscore that the stranded kids didn't immediately turn to savagery. And the inspiring story of kids pulling together. Mighty heartening. Not to be dismissed.
I've valued Lord of the Flies as detonating holes in overtouting the potency of civilizing norms, innate human goodness. We're not far from The Holocaust after all, much other genocide, widespread acceptance of the attempted Jan 6 rebellion. At the same time, I loathe pervasive beliefs in Original Sin -- skewed toward blaming women, girls. If widespread clitorectomy is the price of many otherwise peaceful communities, I consider it a horrifically violent, sexist one.
Why see this as an either/or that will always turn out the same -- one way or another? I've been in many communities from very young: some inclusive, expansive, humane. Others not: highly cliquish, bigoted in vicious ways. Or only toward some of us. Some of the time. Sometimes, I've felt like I could, did make a difference w/ advocacy, leadership. Other times, I've managed only to stir isolation -- perhaps inadvertently more divisiveness violence --despite meaning well. I believe some awesome leaders HAVE made an enormous difference: e.g. ML King, Jr., Mandela. It ain't all immutable laws of nature; nor OUR innate or socialized character.
"attempted Jan 6 rebellion." fedsurrection "inadvertently more divisiveness violence --despite meaning well." Yes contrarians to your beliefs are often triggering to you. Yes certainly in the States lesson plan for the indoctrinees any organic organization by the kulaks must be discouraged.
It was book on our school list, but was never a choice for me and your summary of it confirms why I was never interested in reading it. My childhood started pre television so our time was spent outside adventuring. At 6 and a with my brother at 7 we would often leave the house after breakfast and head off either to the creek to yabby and check out the gypsy camp, or got to the golf course and position ourselves on a hole where we could pick up balls without the golfers seeing us. My brother would then sell them back to the golfers for 5 cents a piece. My mother never worried and we just made sure we were back before dinner or dark. I have memories back to very early days where ( I confirmed this with my mother) we were all sleeping in the one bed apart from myself who was in the cot at the end. I vividly remember waiting for everyone to be asleep, worked out that to get out I needed to be in the corner of the cot to pull myself up, slide down the outside and then try to climb up on the bed at the end so as not to wake anyone up and hop in with everyone. Ultimately I couldnt pull myself up and would tap mum who would say "not you again" but pull me up so I could sleep with them. I always spoke to my own children like I was speaking to an adult when explaining or answering their questions. The fact that they may not necessarily be able to express themselves clearly does not mean that they dont understand. The local kids in the street all played well across all ages and I dont remember ever being threatened by any of them. For me , those 2 stories you mentioned, reflect real life for children. Thanks Peter I love hearing good stories -:)
"attempted Jan 6 rebellion." fedsurrection "inadvertently more divisiveness violence --despite meaning well." Yes contrarians to your beliefs are often triggering to you. Yes certainly in the States lesson plan for the indoctrinees any organic organization by the kulaks must be discouraged.
Thanks, very interesting. Clearly Golding was describing adults in that book.
I watched this TV series and enjoyed the artistic production, and I think it portrayed the horrors very poignantly. Rather than the lack of school discipline, I think that it was the family backgrounds what made the cruelest boys so cruel. They were boys who had been abandoned to boarding schools and regularly faced the embarrassment of having to spend holidays in school as well, as their families would not have them at home. The had not experienced love and care. They had fear and contempt towards their parents, fathers in particular. Piggy on the other hand, although orphaned, came from a loving home with his aunt. So to me this is a tale that highlights the crucial importance of a loving home, not the need for disciplined school. I had heard the true stories or lost boys before and love them! They are more telling of human nature than Golding's book.