I wonder if the ability to change one's mind, to reconsider one's beliefs, attitudes, behavior is also reflected in this habit of saying no. Of course when we see that we have better choices it is (relatively) easy to simply choose them; but often before being able to discover those new choices, we must be able to say no, this isn't working, even to ourselves.
My friend Wendy who runs the Freeschoolin' page said she told her unschooling daughter she hoped she never questioned herself. And her daughter replied, why shouldn't I? How else would I know who I am? I'm paraphrasing but agree that being willing to question ourselves is very relevant to being able to tell ourselves "no".
And yet there is so much criticism towards people who dare to change their minds. Very often this is directed towards women. I have always responded, "yes, I change my mind a lot... Is there anything more worth changing?"
The accusation of "quitter" is reminiscent of the accusation of selfishness. Both have just enough legitimate meaning to be able to confuse the issue, when the real meaning is "Do what I want you to do."
No doubt King George accused the American Colonists of being a bunch of quitters.
"Of course I have forgotten to tell you again, what you already know. That is that the fundament of the school, even before winners and losers, is that everyone has got to go there (...)
If kids in America do not go to school, they can be put in jail. If they are tardy a certain number of times, they may go to jail. If their parents do not see that they go to school, the parents may be judged unfit and the kids go to jail.
You go to jail. All of the talk about motivation or inspiring kids to learn or innovative courses which are relevant is horseshit. It is horseshit because there is no way to know if students really are interested or not. No matter how bad the school is, it is better than jail. Everyone knows that, and the school knows it especially. A teacher comes into the teacher's room and says happily, I had the greatest lesson today! and goes on to tell the other envious teachers what it was that they hadn't thought of themselves and says, The kids were all so excited! It is horseshit. The teacher has forgotten (as I forget) that the kids have to be there or they will go to jail. Perhaps the grand lesson was merely more tolerable than the usual lesson. Perhaps the kids would have rejected both lessons if they could.
That is why the school can never learn anything about its students. Why famous psychologists can successfully threaten pigeons into batting ping ping balls, but can never learn anything about pigeons.
As long as you can threaten people, you can't tell whether or not they really want to do what you are proposing that they do. You can't tell if they would keep on doing it if you weren't threatening them.
You cannot tell. You cannot tell if the kids want to come to your class or not. You can't tell if they are motivated or not. You can't tell if they learn anything or not. All you can tell is, they'd rather come to your class than go to jail."
(from How to Survive In Your Native Land, 1971)
I once took a summer workshop on communication for prospective therapists, which began with the seemingly obvious need to establish trust and rapport; people weren't going to let you try to influence them into changing their beliefs or attitudes if you didn't somehow manage to communicate that you "got" them, got where they were coming from and what they really wanted, and were at least somewhat sensitive to what they feared. Its interesting how much this seems to be ignored when adults relate to children. For one thing, adults (not just teachers) seem to feel entitled to interrogate children about just about anything, and would be astounded to hear a child reply "None of your business". Similarly, I remember reading about Piaget's conversations with children where he would ask them things like "Which glass has more water, the tall thin glass or the short fat glass?" and thinking: the first thing that kid is going to be thinking is: What does this guy want fom me? What's the right thing to say here to give him what he wants and maybe leave me alone? I thought the idea that Piaget could actually learn anything about children's perception of "conservation" in that context was absurd ... yet seemingly no Psych Texts point this out (I haven't read Peter Gray's yet).
The result, apparently, is that academics in particular acquire some very odd ideas about who children are, by virtue of being "taught" who they are rather than actually getting to know some. And being "taught" here means what it unfortunately all too often does: learning to give the expected answers, and to internalize that "knowledge" so that one can glibly carry on a conversation about it with fellow disciples.
"If the activity becomes too painful and no longer meaningful, they can quit." This is powerful. Working in a middle school, I see so many students struggle with just being able to sit in a classroom, it seems so painful to them. In my district (and many others), kids are 1:1 meaning they are given computers that they use throughout the day to do "work". Of course if the school work has no meaning to the child, they will use the computer for other means. This then leads to kids just hiding on there computers during free time rather than interacting with their peers and a whole host of other "behaviors". My heart breaks for these kids and schools only seem to be getting worse even. The solution seems so simple and truly less expensive, add more free play and get back to paper/pencil tasks.
Many years ago, I taught in a typical public school. More recently, I taught writing at a homeschool center. One of our policies was that students have the "right of refusal," meaning we would never make them do something that they felt wasn't right for them. It was striking how much LESS resistance there was to doing suggested activities! The opt-out was used very infrequently and always temporarily. I would simply talk to the child, and usually there was a different way they wanted to go about it or they had something else in mind when they came in. I supported their ideas and let them create what they wanted to.
In public school, I was supposed to "get them to do their work." I had some success with talking to kids about their ideas, but many times I had to remind and prompt, over and over. Most teachers punished the kids by making them work at recess, but I knew the value of the break and just let it go undone. The same students would have incomplete work, day after day. I wish we had the freedom to let them quit!
When I was a sophomore in high school, I joined the football team (much to my father’s delight). However, unlike him (he was a star halfback) I wound up playing tackle where I learned how brutal that sport can be. I no longer wanted to “play” football, so I quit and joined the chorus where I could “play” music. I continued that activity in college. I have not played football since 1953, but this year I was invited to join another chorus.
One of the plagues of our society today is that so many people feel entitled ("I have the right to ________.") to do whatever they want. However, setting aside one's desires for the greater good is how a healthy society functions.
The article doesn't really go into detail about the consequences when a person quits, and that's symptomatic of our society, where other people's feelings and the difficulties quitters plunge them into are not of any serious concern.
For instance, if people are playing a game and someone quits before the end, it may actually ruin the game. The person who quit has exercised their right to quit, but what about the rights of the others who now cannot complete their desire to play the game because someone decided to quit?
This is true of many things. Quit a marriage, and the children suffer. Quit a job, and the remaining employees who have to pick up the slack will suffer. The value of commitment and a person's word of loyalty should not be underestimated. Even in play it matters.
We have a serious problem in our world today getting our focus off what we want and considering the needs of others. We may have a right to quit, but that doesn't mean that we should without considering how our "right" impinges on others' rights and may expose them to the very suffering we are using quitting to avoid.
Werner Erhardt (of EST, circa 70's) said when people's lives don't work for them, it's generally because they are unable to keep their agreements - both with other people, and with themselves. I think we can see how being deprived of opportunities to make real choices for ourselves, including managing our social relations with others who are similarly free to make real choices for themselves ( and thus not a captive audience), could result in various kinds of unbalanced behaviors and attitudes, from becoming an other-directed people pleaser at one extreme, to becoming narcissistically "selfish" at the other (and which behavior actually does not serve oneself at all, not in terms of attaining, as Peter Gray has put it, a satisfying and meaningful life).
I like Erhardt's way of putting it, because it reminds us that the way we view others (just who and what are people, anyway?) has its reflection in how we view and relate to ourselves.
In the fitness and wellness world (as it is in PE classes) this is incredibly overwhelming. I've seen teachers making fun of students because of quitting from an activity, and I've see trainers and coaches doing the same. This creates a lot of injuries, frustration, and desire to quit everything, literally.
Just like kids commit suicide or become disturbed for not being allowed to quit, there are those who do the same in the "all motivatinal and empowering fitness and wellness world". Suicide, addiction to energizing supplement - that give people the energy to 'push through' instead of going home, personality changes (people turn sour, self righteous, and demanding of others not quitting ['If I am suffering here and cant quit then you can't either']). The thing is that generally, fitness culture is demanding of loyalty and unconditional everlasting commitment, in exchange of idealistic results. The promise of a better you!
And boy we place more value on those results than on people's right to quit, like it was nothing! But I don't think that's natural
It is complex however. I've been working in physical education, fitness and wellness, physical rehab for around two decades, and no matter the area of work - not all quitters are created equal, and people quit for different reasons - all valid - but some people do need encouragement to stay and play. The solution of course lies somewhere in between but nowhere specific, which makes it harder. But the freedom to quit makes it a lot easier on everyone. I also agree that a great approach to deal with this is to try and redirect the focus of people on another activity that is is more enjoyable to them, 'they can still play, just something else'. However, this doesn't necessarily apply to hostile environments. And yet, It is crazy, how in environments that are not "necessarily hostile" (the gym, the zumba class, the classroom, etc) people still perceive it as if quitting was not even an option, to the point becoming submissive and self harming (over training, extreme dieting, fat shaming others and themselves; or in the more darker side, extreme body positivity).
Thank you, Juan, for this very thoughtful comment. For the reasons you describe, there is evidence that children are far more likely to sustain serious injuries in adult-directed sports than they are in their own self-directed pickup games of the same activities. You listen to your body when you are "just playing." You listen, unfortunately, to your coach when you are competing. On the plus side, internationally, it is encouraging to see now that some star athletes are leaving the sport before they are past their prime, when they realize what they are doing is no longer good for their mental and physical health. It takes courage to do that.
“people still perceive it as if quitting was not even an option, to the point becoming submissive and self harming” I think this happens with teachers. We are expected to be martyrs “for the kids.” It is hard to quit because you will be judged by fellow teachers and the community. (I quit anyway😉)
Any decent trainer will advise a trainee to listen to their own body over the trainer. But those kinds are few and far between. I'm suffering from a long term weightlifting injury right now because of my own self-mistrust.
It's important to realize that the reason so many of us seek authority outside ourselves to keep us from quitting (or refuse to let our children quit) is that we are using external pressure as a substitute for a growth mindset, and often also as a substitute for being committed to goals of our own choosing in the first place. The growth mindset is what keeps us working towards our goals, believing in our ability to overcome obstacles and do hard things, when it would be easier to quit.
When we have set our own goals, and are committed to our own projects that are correct for us, motivation comes more naturally.
And with regard to personal training specifically, many of us are so used to being dissociated that we don't know 'good pain' (growth) from 'bad pain' (injury).
I have found that being in tune with my body helps with all of these. Firstly, in knowing what I want and what's worth committing to, secondly in finding the internal motivation to keep going when things get rough, and thirdly in knowing good pain from bad pain so I can determine for myself whether and when quitting is the aligned choice.
Would you happen to have read "The Right Call: What Sports Teach Us About Work and Life" by Sally Jenkins? Its on my TBR as a result of seeing the author interviewed on PBS Newshour. I'm always on the lookout for ideas on learning how to learn, especially as reflected in managing one's attention, as well as other aspects such as attitude, emotion, and motivation.
One karate teacher asked us : "if your sensei tells you to hit a wall with your bare hand, would you?" Some of the students said yes and then he said we should not harm ourselves and that no decent teacher would bid this and we need to be able to tell a good trainer from a bully. This was an important lesson and I am grateful for that
Sometimes suffering is just suffering. Persevering though is not suffering and has gains. Using the sports motif, working hard is not suffering but working through injury is - no virtue there. As the saying goes - when things don’t go right, turn left. I have turned left many a time with success.
Indeed. When is it enough? And the answer lies somewhere in the dark and murky and stormy water of each area of work/study. To me is fitness and wellness, and physical education. "The dark side" I call it. I am writing a book about it. I've been exploring those 'waters' for years and the more I learn, the more I focus of searching for ways to surf or navigate them instead of going against the tide. My thought is that we don't need to go against the tide, but we don't have to let's slam on us either.
Yes, I find this obsession to treat a voluntary physical activity ie zumba, yoga etc. like a training regimen disturbing and displaced. A psychiatrist may argue that the person is trying to compensate for not doing something else or “quitting” instead of plodding through in another realm in their life. Any real accomplishment, even in sports is often achieved by following the path of least resistance - a the process that involves pausing, pondering, pivoting and redirecting with purpose.
This gives me clarity on why I hate signing leases and prefer to stay in hotels. Simply by being a person who has the power to leave, a hotel guest commands good treatment. But a renter who can't terminate a lease early without legal and financial repercussions, can be treated very poorly. I thought I had a fear of commitment, but I can see now I just have a healthy fear of being in situations ripe for abuse.
Great article! Also - we not only have to learn that different costs involved in quitting different things, which is part of coming to understand things as having value. Plus, this is part of coming to understand what we can't quit - and why. (Like 'quitting' out of our biological sex - which is not possible.)
I will tell you a true story. When my child was about ten years old, he told me one morning about last night's dream. He narrated—vividly, in our own language which is Tagalog—that he dreamed that he was inside a prison. He said, "I dreamed that I was inside a prison and I was wondering why. Then I started seeing familiar faces—my friends, classmates and teachers. I suddenly realized that the prison was our school." At first, I was worried that it was a sign that he was gonna get in trouble later in life or something ominous. But reading this article reminded me of how unhappy most kids are inside classrooms. I also used to be a teacher and I remember kids getting exhausted from spending long hours inside their classrooms, misbehaving and refusing to listen to any of their teachers, because they were bored to death. Children and adults should always have the freedom to play.
Do you have something more related to hunter-gatherer societies and the fact that children were able to move from one family to another and to other bands too? It seems like this would go against theories of kin selection and reciprocity, wouldn't it?
After 8 years of college, I graduated from dental school. Between undergrad and dental school I became a student of learning itself and told myself I'd give my ultimate goal, having my own practice, a go. I had taken the summer off, backpacking all over my state, and said to myself, if how I feel now shifts from how relaxed and at ease I feel, I'll reexamine my decision. It did, within months I would fall into a beanbag chair exhausted mentally and physically after a days work. Then my neck would begin to hurt as I drove to the office. (I was single at this time)
My insurance person connected me with his brother-in-law who wanted my practice. I basically gave it to him by having him take over my office loans. I then turned to an interest I had from observing my own educational process and became certified as a teacher.
Having noticed the energetic change in kindergarteners and sixth graders in a local elementary school, I jumped into teaching with the desire to generate enlivened sixth graders, as that had been the change I had observed. I soon realized the system wanted me to tame and train the children, which I reluctantly attempted. (Now I had a family.)
I stuck this out for 11 years. My desire for learning brought me to the realization that excellence was a reasonable goal and trying to be perfect hurt me.
I quit teaching, returned to dentistry and retired selling a practice that gave me money to retire on.
Then my grandchildren began to attend school. I came across "Free to Learn" and I am now an advocate for our educational system to pay attention to Peter's and other's research on learning.
This theme is similar to something I recently experienced with my dog. I was having issues with grooming her; she would run away when she saw me get the brush and no amount of treats would coerce her. In my efforts to overcome this, I found a method whereby I would only brush her on a specified mat and if she chose to stand up and leave the mat, I would stop. Within two days, she was happily laid on the mat being brushed all over. It wasn't the brushing she didn't like, it was not having the option to quit. A valuable reminder for me that if you give the option to say no, you're much more likely to get a yes!
Can you say yes without being able to say no?
Lao Tzu
I wonder if the ability to change one's mind, to reconsider one's beliefs, attitudes, behavior is also reflected in this habit of saying no. Of course when we see that we have better choices it is (relatively) easy to simply choose them; but often before being able to discover those new choices, we must be able to say no, this isn't working, even to ourselves.
My friend Wendy who runs the Freeschoolin' page said she told her unschooling daughter she hoped she never questioned herself. And her daughter replied, why shouldn't I? How else would I know who I am? I'm paraphrasing but agree that being willing to question ourselves is very relevant to being able to tell ourselves "no".
Wow, good story!
The daughter seems very confident in her ability to doubt herself. ☺
Agree!
And yet there is so much criticism towards people who dare to change their minds. Very often this is directed towards women. I have always responded, "yes, I change my mind a lot... Is there anything more worth changing?"
The accusation of "quitter" is reminiscent of the accusation of selfishness. Both have just enough legitimate meaning to be able to confuse the issue, when the real meaning is "Do what I want you to do."
No doubt King George accused the American Colonists of being a bunch of quitters.
First, an extended quote from James Herndon:
"Of course I have forgotten to tell you again, what you already know. That is that the fundament of the school, even before winners and losers, is that everyone has got to go there (...)
If kids in America do not go to school, they can be put in jail. If they are tardy a certain number of times, they may go to jail. If their parents do not see that they go to school, the parents may be judged unfit and the kids go to jail.
You go to jail. All of the talk about motivation or inspiring kids to learn or innovative courses which are relevant is horseshit. It is horseshit because there is no way to know if students really are interested or not. No matter how bad the school is, it is better than jail. Everyone knows that, and the school knows it especially. A teacher comes into the teacher's room and says happily, I had the greatest lesson today! and goes on to tell the other envious teachers what it was that they hadn't thought of themselves and says, The kids were all so excited! It is horseshit. The teacher has forgotten (as I forget) that the kids have to be there or they will go to jail. Perhaps the grand lesson was merely more tolerable than the usual lesson. Perhaps the kids would have rejected both lessons if they could.
That is why the school can never learn anything about its students. Why famous psychologists can successfully threaten pigeons into batting ping ping balls, but can never learn anything about pigeons.
As long as you can threaten people, you can't tell whether or not they really want to do what you are proposing that they do. You can't tell if they would keep on doing it if you weren't threatening them.
You cannot tell. You cannot tell if the kids want to come to your class or not. You can't tell if they are motivated or not. You can't tell if they learn anything or not. All you can tell is, they'd rather come to your class than go to jail."
(from How to Survive In Your Native Land, 1971)
I once took a summer workshop on communication for prospective therapists, which began with the seemingly obvious need to establish trust and rapport; people weren't going to let you try to influence them into changing their beliefs or attitudes if you didn't somehow manage to communicate that you "got" them, got where they were coming from and what they really wanted, and were at least somewhat sensitive to what they feared. Its interesting how much this seems to be ignored when adults relate to children. For one thing, adults (not just teachers) seem to feel entitled to interrogate children about just about anything, and would be astounded to hear a child reply "None of your business". Similarly, I remember reading about Piaget's conversations with children where he would ask them things like "Which glass has more water, the tall thin glass or the short fat glass?" and thinking: the first thing that kid is going to be thinking is: What does this guy want fom me? What's the right thing to say here to give him what he wants and maybe leave me alone? I thought the idea that Piaget could actually learn anything about children's perception of "conservation" in that context was absurd ... yet seemingly no Psych Texts point this out (I haven't read Peter Gray's yet).
The result, apparently, is that academics in particular acquire some very odd ideas about who children are, by virtue of being "taught" who they are rather than actually getting to know some. And being "taught" here means what it unfortunately all too often does: learning to give the expected answers, and to internalize that "knowledge" so that one can glibly carry on a conversation about it with fellow disciples.
"If the activity becomes too painful and no longer meaningful, they can quit." This is powerful. Working in a middle school, I see so many students struggle with just being able to sit in a classroom, it seems so painful to them. In my district (and many others), kids are 1:1 meaning they are given computers that they use throughout the day to do "work". Of course if the school work has no meaning to the child, they will use the computer for other means. This then leads to kids just hiding on there computers during free time rather than interacting with their peers and a whole host of other "behaviors". My heart breaks for these kids and schools only seem to be getting worse even. The solution seems so simple and truly less expensive, add more free play and get back to paper/pencil tasks.
Do you feel that you yourself can quit? Would you like to?
Why is that a poignant question? I have quit and resurrected many times. It is called making choices. Better choices involve quitting old ones.
Many years ago, I taught in a typical public school. More recently, I taught writing at a homeschool center. One of our policies was that students have the "right of refusal," meaning we would never make them do something that they felt wasn't right for them. It was striking how much LESS resistance there was to doing suggested activities! The opt-out was used very infrequently and always temporarily. I would simply talk to the child, and usually there was a different way they wanted to go about it or they had something else in mind when they came in. I supported their ideas and let them create what they wanted to.
In public school, I was supposed to "get them to do their work." I had some success with talking to kids about their ideas, but many times I had to remind and prompt, over and over. Most teachers punished the kids by making them work at recess, but I knew the value of the break and just let it go undone. The same students would have incomplete work, day after day. I wish we had the freedom to let them quit!
When I was a sophomore in high school, I joined the football team (much to my father’s delight). However, unlike him (he was a star halfback) I wound up playing tackle where I learned how brutal that sport can be. I no longer wanted to “play” football, so I quit and joined the chorus where I could “play” music. I continued that activity in college. I have not played football since 1953, but this year I was invited to join another chorus.
Love that! I quit calculus in high school to take art classes. I never used or needed calculus in life, but I did become a professional artist
One of the plagues of our society today is that so many people feel entitled ("I have the right to ________.") to do whatever they want. However, setting aside one's desires for the greater good is how a healthy society functions.
The article doesn't really go into detail about the consequences when a person quits, and that's symptomatic of our society, where other people's feelings and the difficulties quitters plunge them into are not of any serious concern.
For instance, if people are playing a game and someone quits before the end, it may actually ruin the game. The person who quit has exercised their right to quit, but what about the rights of the others who now cannot complete their desire to play the game because someone decided to quit?
This is true of many things. Quit a marriage, and the children suffer. Quit a job, and the remaining employees who have to pick up the slack will suffer. The value of commitment and a person's word of loyalty should not be underestimated. Even in play it matters.
We have a serious problem in our world today getting our focus off what we want and considering the needs of others. We may have a right to quit, but that doesn't mean that we should without considering how our "right" impinges on others' rights and may expose them to the very suffering we are using quitting to avoid.
Good point, Dan.
Werner Erhardt (of EST, circa 70's) said when people's lives don't work for them, it's generally because they are unable to keep their agreements - both with other people, and with themselves. I think we can see how being deprived of opportunities to make real choices for ourselves, including managing our social relations with others who are similarly free to make real choices for themselves ( and thus not a captive audience), could result in various kinds of unbalanced behaviors and attitudes, from becoming an other-directed people pleaser at one extreme, to becoming narcissistically "selfish" at the other (and which behavior actually does not serve oneself at all, not in terms of attaining, as Peter Gray has put it, a satisfying and meaningful life).
I like Erhardt's way of putting it, because it reminds us that the way we view others (just who and what are people, anyway?) has its reflection in how we view and relate to ourselves.
This should apply to politics first!
In the fitness and wellness world (as it is in PE classes) this is incredibly overwhelming. I've seen teachers making fun of students because of quitting from an activity, and I've see trainers and coaches doing the same. This creates a lot of injuries, frustration, and desire to quit everything, literally.
Just like kids commit suicide or become disturbed for not being allowed to quit, there are those who do the same in the "all motivatinal and empowering fitness and wellness world". Suicide, addiction to energizing supplement - that give people the energy to 'push through' instead of going home, personality changes (people turn sour, self righteous, and demanding of others not quitting ['If I am suffering here and cant quit then you can't either']). The thing is that generally, fitness culture is demanding of loyalty and unconditional everlasting commitment, in exchange of idealistic results. The promise of a better you!
And boy we place more value on those results than on people's right to quit, like it was nothing! But I don't think that's natural
It is complex however. I've been working in physical education, fitness and wellness, physical rehab for around two decades, and no matter the area of work - not all quitters are created equal, and people quit for different reasons - all valid - but some people do need encouragement to stay and play. The solution of course lies somewhere in between but nowhere specific, which makes it harder. But the freedom to quit makes it a lot easier on everyone. I also agree that a great approach to deal with this is to try and redirect the focus of people on another activity that is is more enjoyable to them, 'they can still play, just something else'. However, this doesn't necessarily apply to hostile environments. And yet, It is crazy, how in environments that are not "necessarily hostile" (the gym, the zumba class, the classroom, etc) people still perceive it as if quitting was not even an option, to the point becoming submissive and self harming (over training, extreme dieting, fat shaming others and themselves; or in the more darker side, extreme body positivity).
Thank you, Juan, for this very thoughtful comment. For the reasons you describe, there is evidence that children are far more likely to sustain serious injuries in adult-directed sports than they are in their own self-directed pickup games of the same activities. You listen to your body when you are "just playing." You listen, unfortunately, to your coach when you are competing. On the plus side, internationally, it is encouraging to see now that some star athletes are leaving the sport before they are past their prime, when they realize what they are doing is no longer good for their mental and physical health. It takes courage to do that.
“people still perceive it as if quitting was not even an option, to the point becoming submissive and self harming” I think this happens with teachers. We are expected to be martyrs “for the kids.” It is hard to quit because you will be judged by fellow teachers and the community. (I quit anyway😉)
Any decent trainer will advise a trainee to listen to their own body over the trainer. But those kinds are few and far between. I'm suffering from a long term weightlifting injury right now because of my own self-mistrust.
It's important to realize that the reason so many of us seek authority outside ourselves to keep us from quitting (or refuse to let our children quit) is that we are using external pressure as a substitute for a growth mindset, and often also as a substitute for being committed to goals of our own choosing in the first place. The growth mindset is what keeps us working towards our goals, believing in our ability to overcome obstacles and do hard things, when it would be easier to quit.
When we have set our own goals, and are committed to our own projects that are correct for us, motivation comes more naturally.
And with regard to personal training specifically, many of us are so used to being dissociated that we don't know 'good pain' (growth) from 'bad pain' (injury).
I have found that being in tune with my body helps with all of these. Firstly, in knowing what I want and what's worth committing to, secondly in finding the internal motivation to keep going when things get rough, and thirdly in knowing good pain from bad pain so I can determine for myself whether and when quitting is the aligned choice.
Would you happen to have read "The Right Call: What Sports Teach Us About Work and Life" by Sally Jenkins? Its on my TBR as a result of seeing the author interviewed on PBS Newshour. I'm always on the lookout for ideas on learning how to learn, especially as reflected in managing one's attention, as well as other aspects such as attitude, emotion, and motivation.
I haven't read or heard of it.
One karate teacher asked us : "if your sensei tells you to hit a wall with your bare hand, would you?" Some of the students said yes and then he said we should not harm ourselves and that no decent teacher would bid this and we need to be able to tell a good trainer from a bully. This was an important lesson and I am grateful for that
Suffering builds character? As the saying goes, no pain, no gain. But when does the gain being sought become the "virtue" of having suffered?
Sometimes suffering is just suffering. Persevering though is not suffering and has gains. Using the sports motif, working hard is not suffering but working through injury is - no virtue there. As the saying goes - when things don’t go right, turn left. I have turned left many a time with success.
Indeed. When is it enough? And the answer lies somewhere in the dark and murky and stormy water of each area of work/study. To me is fitness and wellness, and physical education. "The dark side" I call it. I am writing a book about it. I've been exploring those 'waters' for years and the more I learn, the more I focus of searching for ways to surf or navigate them instead of going against the tide. My thought is that we don't need to go against the tide, but we don't have to let's slam on us either.
Yes, I find this obsession to treat a voluntary physical activity ie zumba, yoga etc. like a training regimen disturbing and displaced. A psychiatrist may argue that the person is trying to compensate for not doing something else or “quitting” instead of plodding through in another realm in their life. Any real accomplishment, even in sports is often achieved by following the path of least resistance - a the process that involves pausing, pondering, pivoting and redirecting with purpose.
This gives me clarity on why I hate signing leases and prefer to stay in hotels. Simply by being a person who has the power to leave, a hotel guest commands good treatment. But a renter who can't terminate a lease early without legal and financial repercussions, can be treated very poorly. I thought I had a fear of commitment, but I can see now I just have a healthy fear of being in situations ripe for abuse.
Great article! Also - we not only have to learn that different costs involved in quitting different things, which is part of coming to understand things as having value. Plus, this is part of coming to understand what we can't quit - and why. (Like 'quitting' out of our biological sex - which is not possible.)
You cannot quit your biological sex, but you can quit following the arbitrary rules society has set for your gender.
I will tell you a true story. When my child was about ten years old, he told me one morning about last night's dream. He narrated—vividly, in our own language which is Tagalog—that he dreamed that he was inside a prison. He said, "I dreamed that I was inside a prison and I was wondering why. Then I started seeing familiar faces—my friends, classmates and teachers. I suddenly realized that the prison was our school." At first, I was worried that it was a sign that he was gonna get in trouble later in life or something ominous. But reading this article reminded me of how unhappy most kids are inside classrooms. I also used to be a teacher and I remember kids getting exhausted from spending long hours inside their classrooms, misbehaving and refusing to listen to any of their teachers, because they were bored to death. Children and adults should always have the freedom to play.
Do you have something more related to hunter-gatherer societies and the fact that children were able to move from one family to another and to other bands too? It seems like this would go against theories of kin selection and reciprocity, wouldn't it?
I love this. In fact my first every (very poorly written) substack was about the right to quit and “voting with your feet”. Thanks for sharing
After 8 years of college, I graduated from dental school. Between undergrad and dental school I became a student of learning itself and told myself I'd give my ultimate goal, having my own practice, a go. I had taken the summer off, backpacking all over my state, and said to myself, if how I feel now shifts from how relaxed and at ease I feel, I'll reexamine my decision. It did, within months I would fall into a beanbag chair exhausted mentally and physically after a days work. Then my neck would begin to hurt as I drove to the office. (I was single at this time)
My insurance person connected me with his brother-in-law who wanted my practice. I basically gave it to him by having him take over my office loans. I then turned to an interest I had from observing my own educational process and became certified as a teacher.
Having noticed the energetic change in kindergarteners and sixth graders in a local elementary school, I jumped into teaching with the desire to generate enlivened sixth graders, as that had been the change I had observed. I soon realized the system wanted me to tame and train the children, which I reluctantly attempted. (Now I had a family.)
I stuck this out for 11 years. My desire for learning brought me to the realization that excellence was a reasonable goal and trying to be perfect hurt me.
I quit teaching, returned to dentistry and retired selling a practice that gave me money to retire on.
Then my grandchildren began to attend school. I came across "Free to Learn" and I am now an advocate for our educational system to pay attention to Peter's and other's research on learning.
This theme is similar to something I recently experienced with my dog. I was having issues with grooming her; she would run away when she saw me get the brush and no amount of treats would coerce her. In my efforts to overcome this, I found a method whereby I would only brush her on a specified mat and if she chose to stand up and leave the mat, I would stop. Within two days, she was happily laid on the mat being brushed all over. It wasn't the brushing she didn't like, it was not having the option to quit. A valuable reminder for me that if you give the option to say no, you're much more likely to get a yes!
This topic also gets a good write up in "The Well Played Game" (helluva book, btw)