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Arnold Kling's avatar

"In my vision for the future, publicly supported learning-and-recreation centers would provide resources that enable everyone, regardless of family income, to educate themselves well in a community of others"

To me, this sounds like you are proposing an unstructured approach for the K-12 age group. How many young people do you think would flounder in an unstructured environment? I suspect that the number is large. Directionally, you are probably right that moving toward *less* structure would be better for many young people. But structured environments have been around for many decades in many countries, and it seems likely that they benefit at least *some* young people.

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Zoe Elisabeth's avatar

I think a lot of students flounder without structure because current school system are so heavily structured, meaning students become reliant from a young age on structure that supports them. This could be different if students were in less structured environments from the beginning of their education and given the opportunity to develop the skills needed to guide themselves.

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Cristina Gemanar's avatar

Absolutely!!

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DC Reade's avatar

Gray's recommendations only indicate the benefit of a relatively less structured learning environment, not a wholly unstructured one. In particular, in my opinion linking learning skills to one-year ranked tiers for children age 5-9 is terribly determinist, and introduces harm with no additional benefit for the students at all. Mixed-age classes with attention given to peer mentoring by the children who catch on first would be much more effective.

Computer-aided instruction also has promise, particularly for math instruction. There are times when the human factor can be detrimental to learning--like when a teacher gets exasperated over a child not understanding a math operation, for example. Computers don't get exasperated, they don't express negative judgements with their tone, they identify learning obstacles and allow children to keep trying without losing their patience.

I single out math skills, because numbers are entirely denotative and straightforward. Computers are ideal as a teaching aid for that skill.

Verbal language partakes of a lot of arbitrary irrationality--particularly English. Computers can't adequately explain why alphabetic spelling is so often at variance with the logic of phonetics, or the subtleties of context than influence the use of terms. Computer logic can't adequately explain the significance of the fact that the words 'vary' and 'very' have two different meanings, for example. A lot of the ability to read written English is dependent on familiarity, and learning to not be defeated by its inherent irrationality quotient. A human teacher present in the moment helps out a lot with that process. Programs like Duolingo can be valuable for learning a second language, but it's my impression that they require some baseline skills competence with ones first language.

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Meghan Lee's avatar

Your vision is spot on and a conversation I have regularly with my husband, family, friends, and colleagues regarding public education. We started homeschooling several years ago, both of our children. One still remains homeschooled, the other has returned to public. One of my children is thriving in all ways possible. My other child who “loves” being back in public, loves the social aspect and is floundering in almost all the other aspects of it. I continue to say, public education will implode on itself…someway or somehow. It is not changing like our ever changing world continues to do. Thank you for this piece, Peter Gray. I respect all of your work and continuously recommend your book “Free to Learn”. It was life-changing for me during our transition to homeschool. I’ve also enjoyed your sessions on the Raised Good Summit online. Cheers to you and your vision! Let’s hope this becomes a reality sooner than later…for the sake of children and their childhood.

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Will Richardson's avatar

I very much appreciate your work, Peter, and I do hope that much of what you've discussed here comes to pass. But I still think there is a core question of "why school?" that still needs to be asked.

What is the purpose of education in a time of increasing complexity and challenge? We can no longer NOT layer a lens of climate change, growing disconnection from one another and nature, receding democracies, advancing conflicts, shocking losses in biodiversity, etc. onto any conversations around what it means to be educated. If the core goal of education remains to be to prepare children to get good jobs so as to feed a capitalist economic system that is pushing us to the brink, then we are surely complicit in what's happening right now.

I've written a lot more on this topic recently in a "manifesto" titled "Confronting Education in a Time of Complexity, Chaos, and Collapse" that might be of interest. https://futureserious.school/manifestoedu

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Peter Kindfield, PhD's avatar

Here's a short read that will give you an idea of what I do. https://peterkindfieldphd.substack.com/p/earth-centered-transformative-ecological

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Peter Kindfield, PhD's avatar

I just read your manifesto and agree 100% Check out my blog. I also focus on the issues you mention in your manifesto, including the excerpt above. Our "transformative activities" are written to support children in changing their worldview from one of separation to one of interdependence. We also focus on learning the skills and concepts they'll need to face collapse, including forming deep mutualistic relationships with themselves, each other, and the beyond-human world and otherwise being able to thrive off the high-tech cruise ship.

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Peter Kindfield, PhD's avatar

Hey Will, I couldn't agree more! I'd love to talk with you more. See my comment here as well. You might be interested in the monthly Zoom meetings I host for Collapse Aware Educators via the Deep Adaptation Forum

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Will Richardson's avatar

Just DM'ed you. Thanks!

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Ryan Bromley's avatar

I've just written on this topic. Perhaps, you might find my thoughts interesting.

https://open.substack.com/pub/ryanbromley/p/a-first-principle-for-education?r=2e8gk6&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

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Jim Vanides's avatar

Peter - As always, I enjoy your passionate newsletters and your progressive view of what schools can and should be. I must admit, though, that article #61 has shown me that I have a more nuanced view of the changes needed so our education system serves everyone well.

In my 13 years of experience in global education philanthropy, I grew to appreciate that the US has a unique education ecosystem with a vast array of learning opportunities. This is especially true when you compare our post secondary pathways to almost any other country.

I don’t think we have a wholesale K-20 quality problem. Rather, we have an equity problem. Don’t get me wrong - we have opportunities for improvement everywhere. But there are some AMAZING learning opportunities in K-12 and post-secondary - just not everywhere and for everyone.

As for the Apprenticeship models that are gaining traction (finally) in the US, I think real-life hands-on experiences can be superb. But let’s also be honest with our students seeking a career: Skills are great - until they’re obsolete (from technology, outsourcing, etc…).

Just today (12/16/2024) NPR’s Market Place featured an interview with Matt Notowidigdo , a professor of economics and business at the University of Chicago’s Booth School of Business. The topic was about manufacturing jobs. Of note:

“…when workers lose their job in manufacturing, as I said, a lot of them struggle to get back in finding another job, and if they really struggle to find another job, then they leave the labor force. They don’t work…”

“We’ve been trying job training for a really long time, and it’s really hard. It’s hard to come up with training programs that look effective when people are older.”

https://www.marketplace.org/2024/12/16/manufacturing-workers-jobs-factories-education-workforce/

College as we know it is certainly imperfect, and people understandably question their return on investment. After all, the tuition increases over 20 years are unconscionable - but the value of the experience can be critically important.

Here’s an example: Coding boot camps can be a pivotal experience for some. But let’s be clear - what they teach is not equivalent to what you learn (and what you earn) from getting a computer science degree.

Colleges and universities offer another type of benefit that extends beyond the course syllabi: Social capital is real, learning to learn is essential for all the career twists and turns ahead, and learning about yourself may have the most value of all.

Yes, let’s reduce the unnecessary stress of education. Let’s expose our young adults to the real world and career possibilities. Let’s stop treating “hands-on” and “academics” as mutually exclusive. Let’s also help our students see the big picture and develop a love of learning that will serve them for a lifetime.

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Jack Watson's avatar

What a phenomenal, passionate read. I’d love to see educations systems designed the way you suggest. Even in my short years as a teacher, I’ve also wondered whether grading children by age is important and I love the idea of students guiding their learning through topics of their own choice. It’s a crime that we don’t see more of it.

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Richard Fransham's avatar

In my view, it is important to get as many people as possible talking about the questions found at the end of this article. The more they are discussed, the more informed people will become, and then the more likely they will be to take action to transform education.

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Claude Stephens's avatar

I agree with much of this. Because I work in an environmentally focused non-profit I regularly work with students that fall into what you describe as grades 10-16. We operationalize what you describe as Phase 2 or career exploration. Programmatically we provide opportunities for young people to explore horticulture, gardening, ecological research, land management, nature-based arts and a great deal more. We see this work as part of our mission, but it also takes a great deal of focused energy, planning, relationship building, specialized skills focused on supporting youth, and more. In other words, time and resources. If every student currently in high school/college were diverted to work environments for career exploration it would overwhelm those systems. Those young people do not appreciatively expand the capacity of an organization to get more work done. They take a great deal of time. I still agree with the Phase 2 approach, but I think we would need to rethink the types of people, and the needed resources, to be able to provide them with quality experiences. Organizations that take on young people engaged in Phase 2 would need outside support to help make that happen. Both in terms of people with the right skill sets, and in funding to make a career exploration journey fruitful. But that could be done. It may just mean diverting funding from the current model to a new model.

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Christine Malanaphy's avatar

I just started our homeschool journey with our 5 year old this year. I don't know if families will be able to afford homeschooling. I was able to find a fully remote position that allows me to be home and still have an income. But if one parents needs to stop working to allow for the children to be home schooled, with this economy, I don't think families can survive with only one income, especially if they have multiple children.

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Annie M's avatar

I hope you don't mind the late reply: you were quoted in Dr. Grey's latest post and I wanted to chime in.

As a fellow homeschooling (and FT SAH) mom, I guarantee you that YOU can make homeschooling as affordable or as expensive as you want it to be as there's an infinite number of free resources to help you along on your journey--from curricula, to local activities, to worksheets (if they're your thing), the works. Here are just a handful: https://youtu.be/wkjVvMoy518?si=9TdaUtWc-Sv4Rw6I

For starters, reading aloud, the most important thing you can do with/to your child and which will most influence his/her future academic success, is free. A library card is free. Many cities even forego late fines for kids' books. Local events like reading challenges from said libraries let your kiddo earn free tickets (like to the zoo, museums, etc.), which further decreases those costs you mention.

Additionally, the fact that only the wealthy can afford homeschooling is false (I linked to the video discussing these below):

- Yearly costs are significantly lower (and even more so if they're $0) than the annual cost attributed to a kid in public school

- MOST homeschool families are at *or below* the median income level, w/65% of them earning <$75K/year

- More than HALF of homeschooling takes place w/only ONE parent in the labor force ==> This one's key because you allege otherwise, and the data doesn't support you.

Here's really interesting look at the myths surrounding homeschooling. I started it at the one re:costs for your reference but you're welcome to backtrack and skip ahead a few mins for more debunked claims: https://www.youtube.com/live/C0l965uwyxw?si=JYfFw5Xlw3apZZep&t=3076 (..And here are the sources he cites, toward the middle of the page: https://www.louderwithcrowder.com/sources-december-17)

ETA: Many states will give you back some-most of the money you're already paying through taxes for public schools, through dual-enrollment programs or actual scholarships. Our state awards up to $8K/year/child through a new scholarship, but it also makes available other programs that give families ~$1800/year/child.

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Michelle R's avatar

Thanks for sharing Annie! There are sooo many myths surrounding home school - I hope people take time to watch the video you shared.

I did not mean to imply that only the wealthy can afford home school - quite the opposite! My point was meant to be that most of the families I know in the homeschool world are indeed on one income (and it is less than what I have) - yet they are content.

You have a great point that people can choose how much to spend. I would guess that people don't realize how little is actually required...precisely because kids don't need to be kept occupied for 6-7 hrs per day with lessons or extracurricular activities.

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Michelle R's avatar

We are on our 16th year of home education. Five kids, one income. (My husband makes a slightly higher income for our area, but I would have had a full-time job in IT if we had put the kids in school.) But I do not regret choosing my children's education & character development over having more material possessions or vacations. Each family's situation is different, but the cost of curriculum is very affordable (especially when compared to what school's pay per child each year!) Just to say: if you really want something (like home education), you will find a way to make it happen.

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Peter Kindfield, PhD's avatar

Hey Peter, I enjoyed reading your thoughts on this topic and, as usual, agree with much of what you said. I have a nit to pick and two interrelated larger issues.

The nit: the phrase "biologically designed." The distinction between design, which implies planning, and evolution, which does not, is important to many of us.

My two related larger issues are the ongoing collapse of our eco- and social systems and the importance of children learning basic ecological skills and concepts like how to grow food and form mutually beneficial relationships with other human and non-human ecosystem contributors. I wonder, do you envision a future where civilization continues on its current course: continuous growth via ecosystem-destroying extractive methods? I believe today's young people will see a drastic change in their lifetimes.

I see our current predicament as living on a high-tech cruise ship and not knowing how to swim. That would be a problem in any case. The fact that the ship is sinking magnifies the problem. I agree that our current educational system is destructive. I'd add that it does what it does, grooming passive consumers and producers, by design. I also agree that learning happens best through play and playful activity!

My vision for the future of K-12 education is learning centers as places where educators nurture learning environments and communities that support children learning traditional and modern ecological skills and concepts as they play in fields and forests. I believe that current school-aged children will need those skills to survive.

That's why my blog, Exploration in Ecology for Children and Their Adults, includes both general and specific ways for children and their adults to playfully learn those skills and concepts together, and have plenty of time to express their freedom to play, rest, and otherwise pursue their own needs and interests. https://peterkindfieldphd.substack.com

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Jeffrey Zygar's avatar

Yes, yes, yes, yes.... thank you for your clear expression of a vision I too want to see manifest. Thanks again for all the research you've completed and probably are completing. I sent a letter to the Gates Foundation, Obama Foundation, Ken Burns, all our state legislators with an email, and anyone else I think might be willing to consider your and other's research on learning. As education moves to embrace learning as nature intended it to occur, it will apply the saying "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." More happy people, do more happy things.

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Emily Berheide's avatar

I am inspired by your vision! I'm excited by imagining this future for education for our children and the joy it would bring, the innovative thinking, creativity and much more. I believe it will lead to many more happy, fulfilled adults because they will have had the opportunity as children and teens to discover what really lights them up and pursue it! Thank you for sharing your vision.

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Michele Gill's avatar

I agree!!! and am trying to build this here in FL and in my work at UCF. I posted about the attitudes necessary at these re-envisioned schools, but I totally agree that the focus/content ought to be aligned according to the three phases you describe. https://transformingschools.substack.com/p/my-audacious-recommendation

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Janet Lett's avatar

Our canadian Township of Ignace has been choose/accepted as the 1st Canadian Nuclear Depository site. The opportunities for changing the look, feel and fun of learning and exploring at our finger tips. Would appreciate thoughts and participation during this endeavor.

Janet Lett

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Kunlun | Playful Brains's avatar

Thank you Peter for putting out this courageous and compelling vision for the future of education. As a scientist and a parent, I find myself nodding not just in agreement, but in recognition.

You’ve beautifully articulated something I’ve been feeling deeply since becoming a dad: that the spark of curiosity in kids is not something we need to create, it’s something we must protect. Recently I started a publication called Playful Brains, where I thrive to help busy parents raise curious kids through science, play, and wonder. The heart of it is this exact belief: that kids learn best through play.

Reading your three-phase vision, I was especially struck by how well it mirrors the natural arc of child development. Discovery through play. Purposeful exploration. Then mastery through meaningful, real-world contribution. It’s a roadmap that honors childhood, rather than rushing kids toward adulthood with grades and benchmarks that often ignore who they really are.

Your line, “college is just grades 13, 14, 15, & 16”, hit me hard. I remember sleepwalking through much of college myself, chasing credentials, not questions. And now, seeing how many young people are emerging from this system unsure of who they are or what they want, it’s clear something has to shift.

What gives me hope is what you pointed out: the future has already begun. Parents are leaving the old system not because they’re rebels, but because they’re paying attention. They're watching their kids come alive when given autonomy, joy, and time. They’re finding community in co-ops and learning centers. They're saying yes to self-directed learning, sometimes out of frustration, but often out of love.

If the education system can evolve to meet children where they are, rather than where the system wants them to be, we may finally stop asking "how do we make kids learn" and start asking "how do we make space for their natural love of learning to flourish?"

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Lucy Gray's avatar

I appreciate your vision and I find K12 schools in my neck of the woods not particularly interested in shifting due to existing bureaucracies. They also seem to rest on their laurels and there's no impetus to change.

My alma mater, Beloit College, though, is moving in the direction you describe. Small liberal arts colleges need to innovate because of the changing demographics you mention. Here's an article that features the College's efforts along with some other schools in their area.

https://oldnorthwestterritory.northwestquarterly.com/2025/06/05/the-real-value-of-college-its-about-the-skills

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Paluku's avatar

Good

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