School pressure, achievement pressure, fear of the future, learned helplessness, and self-fulfilling prophesies about “trauma” may underlie the rise in teen suicides.
I'm on board with almost everything you wrote here, although I object slightly to the idea that kids' smartphones are "yet one more of their remaining means of independence," since almost everything kids encounter via smartphones and tablets are apps structured by adults and/or use "persuasive technology" to nudge user behavior, often in unhealthy directions.
I think it's important to emphasize the goal is to REPLACE some screen time with independence. If we make the mistake of calling screen time "independence," we're not going to improve the situation. Screens are just another grown-up-held leash lashed to their necks.
Yes and no. There are certainly apps and sites that are unhealthy for kids and lead them down algorithm-driven rabbit holes. However, for many teenagers, at least (not talking about little kids here), their devices ARE key to what little independence they have. It’s how they communicate with their peers, coordinate getting together IRL, get around (Uber), sign up for activities and get schedule updates, you name it. For GenZ, online is where they hang out with friends, without adult supervision, for better or for worse.
But it’s definitely “for worse,” compared with in-person hangouts. Social media is designed to manipulate people’s emotions in order to keep them scrolling and buying. It prioritizes posts that generate conflict and distress. It’s not an open-ended platform. Are teens stuck in the current social system better off with social media than without it? Sure, probably. But I think a better solution is to find an in-person community that shares one’s priorities: facilitating childhood independence, prioritizing in person interactions over online, insisting that public spaces are for children and teenagers too, and minimally scheduling kids’ time.
Oh, I agree wholeheartedly that in-person interactions, access to public spaces, and looser schedules would be WAY better than current reality. But how do we get back there? As the original essay said so well:
"Compared to the task of changing social structures so kids can once again play and explore independently, which they must do to grow up happy and resilient, and compared to the task of truly reforming schools, so they work with kids’ natural ways of learning rather than against them, and compared to the task of changing social structures to emphasize the value of cooperation more than competition, taking kids’ smartphones away is easy. But that won’t solve the problem. It’ll make it worse."
And I'm certainly not defending the algorithm-driven Instagram, TikTok, Facebook (though no self-respecting teenager is on the latter) -- those are clearly doing some terrible stuff to kids. But platforms that don't have ads, don't have "influencers" or corporations posting content, don't have infinite scrolling, but are really just for peer-to-peer chat are a big part of kids' social lives these days. Apparently.
Agree on that. Let's not treat all digital activities the same. (Just bought a Playstation for my daughters :-.) But looking at data at least in Sweden where I am situated, the 4,5-5 hours a day we let our teens spend on their phone on avarage, isn't made up of people ordering Ubers or sending direct text messages. For girls it's almost entirely made up of social media (the algorith thing), for boys it's more games. And we have the same disturbing increase in depression and anxiety matching the timing of that increase in social media use.
Texting and uber and phone email updates, maps, etc. are certainly useful tools, but I don’t think settling for an omniscient computer in one’s pocket at all times is a great compromise. I’m hoping to get a WisePhone and a working computer, once my personal budget allows for it.
Again, thank you for writing on this topic! As with any issue in society, the cause is generally more complex and does not have a simple solution. "Teasing may be seen as “bullying.” A flirtatious touch or comment may be seen as “sexual abuse.”- I witnessed this in the early 2000's when so many of my students would tell me someone was bullying them and I had to explain that the other kid was just acting like a jerk. The term "bully" was way overused and pushed on kids.
The human experience involves many complex positive and negative emotions that we now seem to want to pathologize. I work in a public school and was recently required to attend a Mental Health First Aid training, a training that my administrators plans to extend to all those who work in the district (from custodians, kitchen staff to teachers). My fear is that, as you mention, now every time a child experiences a negative emotion/situation, it will now be label by even more adults rather than used as an opportunity to grow and learn from.
I would love for more attention to be brought on the over reliance on computers to educate kids as I feel it is part of the complex problem as well. I would argue these online curriculums that many schools uses to educate kids as young as kindergarten do very little in the way of educating and cause more harm (it is also a billion dollar industry!). We need to take control of these devices in schools and get back to more traditional teaching. Sweden is starting to recognize this https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/11/sweden-says-back-to-basics-schooling-works-on-paper. I encourage you to ask young students their thoughts on computers in school, I have and their responses have been insightful!
Thanks so much Peter for including the European perspective in your analysis. Otherwise, one could get the mistaken impression that the increase in teen suicide is a global issue, whereas it’s first and foremost a US phenomenon.
I have lived most of my adult life in continental Europe (the UK is different, and generally reflects US cultural standards), and although over-protective parenting has also made great inroads here (unfortunately), it is still a far cry from what it is in the US.
The view from here when looking at the US is generally one of amazement that such extremes (the traumatization of everyday language and events, and the coddling of children) can even exist. I hope the continuing efforts of people like Peter Gray, Johnathan Haidt and Lenore Skenazy can help to stem the tide.
Thank you, Michael. My experience, too, is that the UK is much more like the US on these issues than is continental Europe. Australia likewise seems to be more like the US, at least according to the people I talk with there.
I also found the European data intriguing, and it made me wander off in two different directions. Firstly, it would be interesting to see more European data for a longer timeframe, and secondly, what would happen if the US data were separated out on a geographical basis. I recall a TED talk by Sir Ken Robinson in which he provided data showing that ritalin prescriptions were issued wildly inhomogenously in the US, ranging from moderate on the West Coast and rising steadily to very much on the East Coast. What might more geographically differentiated data on teen suicides reveal?
Peter, I’m so thankful for you and your Substack. I appreciate that you went down this teen mental health literature review path; you have helped me look inward as a parent, reflect on my own upbringing from a new perspective, and reduced my reflexive condemnation of Smartphones as the cause of all suffering. Already, I have pointed many of my fellow parents to this series when the inevitable conversation arises around our collective concern for our kids.
You are modeling what healthy discourse looks like. And while you (and now I) may not agree with every one of his conclusions, Jonathan Haidt is as well. I discovered Play Makes Us Human through Jonathan’s admiration for your work and his dedication to weaving into contrary viewpoints into his own work. I think you two should go on a live debate tour. It would be riveting
Thank you, Rawley. Jon Haidt and I don't agree about smartphones and social media, but we agree on so much else. We are co-founders (along with Lenore Skenazy and Dan Shuchman of Let Grow, the nonprofit working to bring more free play and adventure (offline adventure!) into children's lives.
What a lot of research you have put into this topic , striving at all times for a balanced view of the matter, by using research and facts to reach conclusions, as opposed to personal or popular opinions.
Isn't it sad that we have created the need for adults to step in by almost eliminating free play and most types of autonomy kids used to have. I've worked with many kids who are in the upper grades but just started homeschooling. I've observed that they can pick up the problem-solving skills even when they're older - IF their adults allow them enough freedom to practice their skills with peers.
I am grateful for you pointing out that mental health is rarely depending on one thing. And many of the things you mention as drivers seem relevant. I do share your view that play deprivation has been a large driver of mental health problems, as well as a changed pressure.
However, I regret to say that I think you overlook huge chunks of crucial research and data when you draw your conclusions regarding technology's impact.
1. You claim that the teen mental health crisis, with it's sudden increase especially among teen girls, around 2010-2015 or so, isn't international. But it is.
First, when looking at suicide rates it's important to analyse the development of suicide rates among teens relative to the suicide rates of the whole population in each country. Doing that, one can see a sudden shift upwards in the rest of the Anglosphere timing the US development almost perfectly. Other measures, like the number of teens admitted to hospitals of nonfatal self-harm, also go up. Data and arguments around this can be found here: https://www.afterbabel.com/p/anglo-teen-suicide.
Secondly the view to rates of teen depression and anxiety, the Nordics have a sudden increase also timing the curve in the Anglosphere. Graphs are available here:
Working with such issues in Sweden, I can testify that schools and healthcare talk of a mental health crisis in the same way as you seem to be doing in the US and the timing is identical.
Many forces have probably worked together to undermine teen resilience. But it can only have been something international that set of such a drastic shift in so many countries at the same time.
One can note that the mental health crisis in the Nordics, clearly visible in many measures like depression and anxiety levels, luckily hasn't resulted in the same increase in suicides. The text about the Nordics in the link above has arguments about that. I haven't got data on it, but my suspicion would be that Nordic kids still have more freedom to play. Therefore, they may have had a better "basic resilience" to handle the drastic lifestyle changes 2010-2015. They got depressed but didn't take their own lives to the same extent as in the US.
2. Second, you have claimed that there is no strong scientific evidence about any technology affecting teen mental health. What about this data set from about 10 000 persons in the UK in which girls spending 5 hours a day or more on social media were three times more likely to be depressed than non-users? : https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(18)30060-9/fulltext
What about this Sapiens Lab article, based on data from 65+ countries, showing a correlation between age when you got first smartphone and mental health at age 18-24?:
.. in which Haidht et. al. thoroughly go through almost every published article on the subject at that time and describes why some meta studies don't find correlations and others do. In short, studies looking at all kinds of screen time and all kinds of people fail to find correlation. In those data sets where you can distinguish social media use and depression or anxiety among teen girls most, most studies show a correlation. The size of the correlation is significant, normally on par with binge drinking or marijuana use. Almost all experimental studies where subjects quit social media for more than a week show significant increase in mental health, which is evidence for causality not just correlation. If you still claim there is no scientific evidence, I would expect an argument why the analysis by Haidt et.
All in all, many factors have probably worked together to make mental health worse, of which you have explained important ones. But the thing kicking of the very sudden changes around 2010-2015 MUST have been 1) international, and 2) fast, since nothing happens during the first 8 or so years after 2000, then all of a sudden numbers soar. So far, we've seen no other explanatory factor than the movement of kid's social interactions from the real world into the digital that can meet these criteria. This huge life style change times perfectly with the mental health curves. Economy does not (unemployment actually declined during these periods). No other factor in the current debate meets the criteria, as explained here: https://jeanmtwenge.substack.com/p/yes-its-the-phones-and-social-media
This comment is not written to deny the importance of free play, or say that the current school pressure is good. I totally agree with those points. I also agree with your previously made point that all digital media is not the same, one screen thing can be bad and another good or neautral. But that mustn't lead us to overlook the effects of our shift to phone based childhood, or believe that the net effect of TikTok is greater freedom or autonomy for kids on par with unsupervised play. To be blunt, letting our 13-year old spend 6 hours a day watching beauty influencers with her social interactions almost entirely governed by cunning interaction design doesn't have the qualities we're looking for to make her life better.
Peter - Thank you for that wonderful Digression (Series). I found out about it from Arnold Kling’s Substack, In My Tribe. I’ll have a longer sit down with it one of these days as it deserves deeper pondering and review.
I know you want to get back to the main stream of your Substack, but I just wanted to stand up for the concept of achievement here a bit. That word obviously has more than one meaning. You’re using it here with negative connotations, and deservedly so, but achievement is a good thing if done right.
Can you say something about achievement done right? What does that look like to you?
Scott, thank you for this comment. There is a big difference between achieving one's own goals and feeling compelled to "achieve" by measures that others have set out for you and are not your choice. Kids, like all of us, want to be in charge of their own life, not pawns required to do what others have set out for them. My research into Self-Directed Education convinces me that there is a world of difference between a kid who has been allowed to play, explore, and discover their own goals and a kid who has been tracked according to goals (often empty ones) set out by the adults in their life.
This topic deserves a lot more thought and discussion. Thank you for shining light on it. I plan to start thinking carefully about this, especially about goals. How do we help people discern between goals that are “empty” and goals that bring about lasting fulfillment?
It seems we may need more Socratic dialogue starting somewhere around 3rd grade, plus or minus a few years depending on the child, the family and the subject matter.
It also seems to me that parents HAVE TO BE more involved in this dialogue, which requires parents working fewer hours at work and more at something that resembles a family school.
This would also require us to rethink our neighborhoods. It seems we’ve become insulated in our homes, venturing out in most cases in our cars. Kids are not doing well in these car-dominant neighborhoods.
Hi, I'm an Indian parent in the US and I just found your substack and obsessively read all your posts all day while my kid pulled at my skirt whining.
The one part of this whole debate that no one seems to touch on is this - folks like Jonathan Haidt like to blame coddling from parents and likes in particular to talk about attachment parenting or gentle parenting. And the opposition to this goes into wild unintelligible screeching. The point I feel everyone is missing is this - in an earlier generation of Americans, parents really didn't know how to parent, though they were more in touch with instincts and exposed to other parents that they were more sure of what to do and figured it out with less doubt. I think it was necessary for parents to spend more time with their kids than they did in the 60s and 70s. I've had a 70 year old white woman tell me how her mom would lock all the kids in the basement with cartoons playing half of saturday so that she could clean the house, and none of the five kids can watch cartoons today without it triggering some awful memories. None of those five kids were breastfed either. Obviously that's not ideal and people moved away from all that for legit reasons.
BUT the big difference I notice between how I was parented in India vs how kids are parented in the US is that while we had more parental involvement, the parental involvement helped us try new things and take more risks. Here, parental or other adult involvement is somehow coddling. It's like, if we had our fun uncle with us, we could swim in the reservoir, but not if we kids were by ourselves. In the US, there's not much fun uncle stuff going on for kids these days, it feels like. Adults in the US are pushing their kids away or enforcing rules, or pushing kids away by enforcing rules. Like, if a kid wants more soothing, parents think them 'giving in' is bad as it makes the kid less independent, and they are like go, go be by yourself, don't be so dependent on mom. If a kid wants to be independent though, they worry about the kid getting in trouble, so they force him to sit down and shut up.
Plus, all the adult supervision most kids get these days is from official adults, like teachers or camp counselors or others who are in positions of official authority, i.e. who can get sued for shit going wrong. No fun uncles who give kids their first taste of coffee. No fun aunts who let kids try makeup. Everyone is so bent on enforcing rules and covering their ass.
I think this is a big reason - no chill adults around kids who let them do no-no stuff under supervision (and if they are, they usually tend to not have the best intentions). There's few places to feel okay for not ticking all the boxes, there's no way to feel like it's okay to bend the rules for a bit, and there's few others teaching kids alternative ways to be a grownup, but like in a way their parents would largely be okay with.
Many valuable points have been made. Yet, I tend to disagree about smartphones. Depression, anxiety, low self-esteem of EU teens are often boosted by social media. Independence can be achieved through simple phones. Virtual life is not living. Essential life skills are never acquired because of technology. Independence is the ability to walk to school, buy groceries, using money, walking to your friends' home, playing unattended and not smartphones.
I'm on board with almost everything you wrote here, although I object slightly to the idea that kids' smartphones are "yet one more of their remaining means of independence," since almost everything kids encounter via smartphones and tablets are apps structured by adults and/or use "persuasive technology" to nudge user behavior, often in unhealthy directions.
I think it's important to emphasize the goal is to REPLACE some screen time with independence. If we make the mistake of calling screen time "independence," we're not going to improve the situation. Screens are just another grown-up-held leash lashed to their necks.
Yes and no. There are certainly apps and sites that are unhealthy for kids and lead them down algorithm-driven rabbit holes. However, for many teenagers, at least (not talking about little kids here), their devices ARE key to what little independence they have. It’s how they communicate with their peers, coordinate getting together IRL, get around (Uber), sign up for activities and get schedule updates, you name it. For GenZ, online is where they hang out with friends, without adult supervision, for better or for worse.
But it’s definitely “for worse,” compared with in-person hangouts. Social media is designed to manipulate people’s emotions in order to keep them scrolling and buying. It prioritizes posts that generate conflict and distress. It’s not an open-ended platform. Are teens stuck in the current social system better off with social media than without it? Sure, probably. But I think a better solution is to find an in-person community that shares one’s priorities: facilitating childhood independence, prioritizing in person interactions over online, insisting that public spaces are for children and teenagers too, and minimally scheduling kids’ time.
Oh, I agree wholeheartedly that in-person interactions, access to public spaces, and looser schedules would be WAY better than current reality. But how do we get back there? As the original essay said so well:
"Compared to the task of changing social structures so kids can once again play and explore independently, which they must do to grow up happy and resilient, and compared to the task of truly reforming schools, so they work with kids’ natural ways of learning rather than against them, and compared to the task of changing social structures to emphasize the value of cooperation more than competition, taking kids’ smartphones away is easy. But that won’t solve the problem. It’ll make it worse."
And I'm certainly not defending the algorithm-driven Instagram, TikTok, Facebook (though no self-respecting teenager is on the latter) -- those are clearly doing some terrible stuff to kids. But platforms that don't have ads, don't have "influencers" or corporations posting content, don't have infinite scrolling, but are really just for peer-to-peer chat are a big part of kids' social lives these days. Apparently.
Agree on that. Let's not treat all digital activities the same. (Just bought a Playstation for my daughters :-.) But looking at data at least in Sweden where I am situated, the 4,5-5 hours a day we let our teens spend on their phone on avarage, isn't made up of people ordering Ubers or sending direct text messages. For girls it's almost entirely made up of social media (the algorith thing), for boys it's more games. And we have the same disturbing increase in depression and anxiety matching the timing of that increase in social media use.
Texting and uber and phone email updates, maps, etc. are certainly useful tools, but I don’t think settling for an omniscient computer in one’s pocket at all times is a great compromise. I’m hoping to get a WisePhone and a working computer, once my personal budget allows for it.
Again, thank you for writing on this topic! As with any issue in society, the cause is generally more complex and does not have a simple solution. "Teasing may be seen as “bullying.” A flirtatious touch or comment may be seen as “sexual abuse.”- I witnessed this in the early 2000's when so many of my students would tell me someone was bullying them and I had to explain that the other kid was just acting like a jerk. The term "bully" was way overused and pushed on kids.
The human experience involves many complex positive and negative emotions that we now seem to want to pathologize. I work in a public school and was recently required to attend a Mental Health First Aid training, a training that my administrators plans to extend to all those who work in the district (from custodians, kitchen staff to teachers). My fear is that, as you mention, now every time a child experiences a negative emotion/situation, it will now be label by even more adults rather than used as an opportunity to grow and learn from.
I would love for more attention to be brought on the over reliance on computers to educate kids as I feel it is part of the complex problem as well. I would argue these online curriculums that many schools uses to educate kids as young as kindergarten do very little in the way of educating and cause more harm (it is also a billion dollar industry!). We need to take control of these devices in schools and get back to more traditional teaching. Sweden is starting to recognize this https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/11/sweden-says-back-to-basics-schooling-works-on-paper. I encourage you to ask young students their thoughts on computers in school, I have and their responses have been insightful!
Thanks so much Peter for including the European perspective in your analysis. Otherwise, one could get the mistaken impression that the increase in teen suicide is a global issue, whereas it’s first and foremost a US phenomenon.
I have lived most of my adult life in continental Europe (the UK is different, and generally reflects US cultural standards), and although over-protective parenting has also made great inroads here (unfortunately), it is still a far cry from what it is in the US.
The view from here when looking at the US is generally one of amazement that such extremes (the traumatization of everyday language and events, and the coddling of children) can even exist. I hope the continuing efforts of people like Peter Gray, Johnathan Haidt and Lenore Skenazy can help to stem the tide.
Thank you, Michael. My experience, too, is that the UK is much more like the US on these issues than is continental Europe. Australia likewise seems to be more like the US, at least according to the people I talk with there.
Anyone for a can of worms?
I also found the European data intriguing, and it made me wander off in two different directions. Firstly, it would be interesting to see more European data for a longer timeframe, and secondly, what would happen if the US data were separated out on a geographical basis. I recall a TED talk by Sir Ken Robinson in which he provided data showing that ritalin prescriptions were issued wildly inhomogenously in the US, ranging from moderate on the West Coast and rising steadily to very much on the East Coast. What might more geographically differentiated data on teen suicides reveal?
Peter, I’m so thankful for you and your Substack. I appreciate that you went down this teen mental health literature review path; you have helped me look inward as a parent, reflect on my own upbringing from a new perspective, and reduced my reflexive condemnation of Smartphones as the cause of all suffering. Already, I have pointed many of my fellow parents to this series when the inevitable conversation arises around our collective concern for our kids.
You are modeling what healthy discourse looks like. And while you (and now I) may not agree with every one of his conclusions, Jonathan Haidt is as well. I discovered Play Makes Us Human through Jonathan’s admiration for your work and his dedication to weaving into contrary viewpoints into his own work. I think you two should go on a live debate tour. It would be riveting
Thank you, Rawley. Jon Haidt and I don't agree about smartphones and social media, but we agree on so much else. We are co-founders (along with Lenore Skenazy and Dan Shuchman of Let Grow, the nonprofit working to bring more free play and adventure (offline adventure!) into children's lives.
Thank you Peter.
What a lot of research you have put into this topic , striving at all times for a balanced view of the matter, by using research and facts to reach conclusions, as opposed to personal or popular opinions.
Isn't it sad that we have created the need for adults to step in by almost eliminating free play and most types of autonomy kids used to have. I've worked with many kids who are in the upper grades but just started homeschooling. I've observed that they can pick up the problem-solving skills even when they're older - IF their adults allow them enough freedom to practice their skills with peers.
Hi, and big thanks to Peter for this.
I am grateful for you pointing out that mental health is rarely depending on one thing. And many of the things you mention as drivers seem relevant. I do share your view that play deprivation has been a large driver of mental health problems, as well as a changed pressure.
However, I regret to say that I think you overlook huge chunks of crucial research and data when you draw your conclusions regarding technology's impact.
1. You claim that the teen mental health crisis, with it's sudden increase especially among teen girls, around 2010-2015 or so, isn't international. But it is.
First, when looking at suicide rates it's important to analyse the development of suicide rates among teens relative to the suicide rates of the whole population in each country. Doing that, one can see a sudden shift upwards in the rest of the Anglosphere timing the US development almost perfectly. Other measures, like the number of teens admitted to hospitals of nonfatal self-harm, also go up. Data and arguments around this can be found here: https://www.afterbabel.com/p/anglo-teen-suicide.
Secondly the view to rates of teen depression and anxiety, the Nordics have a sudden increase also timing the curve in the Anglosphere. Graphs are available here:
https://www.afterbabel.com/p/international-mental-illness-part-two
Working with such issues in Sweden, I can testify that schools and healthcare talk of a mental health crisis in the same way as you seem to be doing in the US and the timing is identical.
Many forces have probably worked together to undermine teen resilience. But it can only have been something international that set of such a drastic shift in so many countries at the same time.
One can note that the mental health crisis in the Nordics, clearly visible in many measures like depression and anxiety levels, luckily hasn't resulted in the same increase in suicides. The text about the Nordics in the link above has arguments about that. I haven't got data on it, but my suspicion would be that Nordic kids still have more freedom to play. Therefore, they may have had a better "basic resilience" to handle the drastic lifestyle changes 2010-2015. They got depressed but didn't take their own lives to the same extent as in the US.
2. Second, you have claimed that there is no strong scientific evidence about any technology affecting teen mental health. What about this data set from about 10 000 persons in the UK in which girls spending 5 hours a day or more on social media were three times more likely to be depressed than non-users? : https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(18)30060-9/fulltext
What about this Sapiens Lab article, based on data from 65+ countries, showing a correlation between age when you got first smartphone and mental health at age 18-24?:
https://sapienlabs.org/age-of-first-smartphone-tablet-and-mental-wellbeing-outcomes/
And what about this widely read Substack: https://www.afterbabel.com/p/social-media-mental-illness-epidemic
.. in which Haidht et. al. thoroughly go through almost every published article on the subject at that time and describes why some meta studies don't find correlations and others do. In short, studies looking at all kinds of screen time and all kinds of people fail to find correlation. In those data sets where you can distinguish social media use and depression or anxiety among teen girls most, most studies show a correlation. The size of the correlation is significant, normally on par with binge drinking or marijuana use. Almost all experimental studies where subjects quit social media for more than a week show significant increase in mental health, which is evidence for causality not just correlation. If you still claim there is no scientific evidence, I would expect an argument why the analysis by Haidt et.
All in all, many factors have probably worked together to make mental health worse, of which you have explained important ones. But the thing kicking of the very sudden changes around 2010-2015 MUST have been 1) international, and 2) fast, since nothing happens during the first 8 or so years after 2000, then all of a sudden numbers soar. So far, we've seen no other explanatory factor than the movement of kid's social interactions from the real world into the digital that can meet these criteria. This huge life style change times perfectly with the mental health curves. Economy does not (unemployment actually declined during these periods). No other factor in the current debate meets the criteria, as explained here: https://jeanmtwenge.substack.com/p/yes-its-the-phones-and-social-media
This comment is not written to deny the importance of free play, or say that the current school pressure is good. I totally agree with those points. I also agree with your previously made point that all digital media is not the same, one screen thing can be bad and another good or neautral. But that mustn't lead us to overlook the effects of our shift to phone based childhood, or believe that the net effect of TikTok is greater freedom or autonomy for kids on par with unsupervised play. To be blunt, letting our 13-year old spend 6 hours a day watching beauty influencers with her social interactions almost entirely governed by cunning interaction design doesn't have the qualities we're looking for to make her life better.
Peter - Thank you for that wonderful Digression (Series). I found out about it from Arnold Kling’s Substack, In My Tribe. I’ll have a longer sit down with it one of these days as it deserves deeper pondering and review.
I know you want to get back to the main stream of your Substack, but I just wanted to stand up for the concept of achievement here a bit. That word obviously has more than one meaning. You’re using it here with negative connotations, and deservedly so, but achievement is a good thing if done right.
Can you say something about achievement done right? What does that look like to you?
Scott, thank you for this comment. There is a big difference between achieving one's own goals and feeling compelled to "achieve" by measures that others have set out for you and are not your choice. Kids, like all of us, want to be in charge of their own life, not pawns required to do what others have set out for them. My research into Self-Directed Education convinces me that there is a world of difference between a kid who has been allowed to play, explore, and discover their own goals and a kid who has been tracked according to goals (often empty ones) set out by the adults in their life.
This topic deserves a lot more thought and discussion. Thank you for shining light on it. I plan to start thinking carefully about this, especially about goals. How do we help people discern between goals that are “empty” and goals that bring about lasting fulfillment?
It seems we may need more Socratic dialogue starting somewhere around 3rd grade, plus or minus a few years depending on the child, the family and the subject matter.
It also seems to me that parents HAVE TO BE more involved in this dialogue, which requires parents working fewer hours at work and more at something that resembles a family school.
This would also require us to rethink our neighborhoods. It seems we’ve become insulated in our homes, venturing out in most cases in our cars. Kids are not doing well in these car-dominant neighborhoods.
What is that Cat Steven’s song?
https://music.apple.com/us/album/where-do-the-children-play/1535560790?i=1535560796
Hi, I'm an Indian parent in the US and I just found your substack and obsessively read all your posts all day while my kid pulled at my skirt whining.
The one part of this whole debate that no one seems to touch on is this - folks like Jonathan Haidt like to blame coddling from parents and likes in particular to talk about attachment parenting or gentle parenting. And the opposition to this goes into wild unintelligible screeching. The point I feel everyone is missing is this - in an earlier generation of Americans, parents really didn't know how to parent, though they were more in touch with instincts and exposed to other parents that they were more sure of what to do and figured it out with less doubt. I think it was necessary for parents to spend more time with their kids than they did in the 60s and 70s. I've had a 70 year old white woman tell me how her mom would lock all the kids in the basement with cartoons playing half of saturday so that she could clean the house, and none of the five kids can watch cartoons today without it triggering some awful memories. None of those five kids were breastfed either. Obviously that's not ideal and people moved away from all that for legit reasons.
BUT the big difference I notice between how I was parented in India vs how kids are parented in the US is that while we had more parental involvement, the parental involvement helped us try new things and take more risks. Here, parental or other adult involvement is somehow coddling. It's like, if we had our fun uncle with us, we could swim in the reservoir, but not if we kids were by ourselves. In the US, there's not much fun uncle stuff going on for kids these days, it feels like. Adults in the US are pushing their kids away or enforcing rules, or pushing kids away by enforcing rules. Like, if a kid wants more soothing, parents think them 'giving in' is bad as it makes the kid less independent, and they are like go, go be by yourself, don't be so dependent on mom. If a kid wants to be independent though, they worry about the kid getting in trouble, so they force him to sit down and shut up.
Plus, all the adult supervision most kids get these days is from official adults, like teachers or camp counselors or others who are in positions of official authority, i.e. who can get sued for shit going wrong. No fun uncles who give kids their first taste of coffee. No fun aunts who let kids try makeup. Everyone is so bent on enforcing rules and covering their ass.
I think this is a big reason - no chill adults around kids who let them do no-no stuff under supervision (and if they are, they usually tend to not have the best intentions). There's few places to feel okay for not ticking all the boxes, there's no way to feel like it's okay to bend the rules for a bit, and there's few others teaching kids alternative ways to be a grownup, but like in a way their parents would largely be okay with.
Many valuable points have been made. Yet, I tend to disagree about smartphones. Depression, anxiety, low self-esteem of EU teens are often boosted by social media. Independence can be achieved through simple phones. Virtual life is not living. Essential life skills are never acquired because of technology. Independence is the ability to walk to school, buy groceries, using money, walking to your friends' home, playing unattended and not smartphones.